Barbra said that R.C. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. @ Velour: There are countless permutations of how Sproul should be dealt with as a pastor, church member, father, etc. And some are Christus Victor and a few are governmental. He had an older brother who died an alcoholic. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? However, he does now have a permanent criminal record, and a felony record, no less. And I have contempt when people excuse and tolerate and make excuses for substance abuse of any kind; that helps no one. It is perfectly fine for you to believe that. Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. This is inexcusable and seriously hurts your credibility. RC Jr never did start his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. So wrong on both counts. I think that was what Barbara was in part advocating for up thread. He lost one wife and two beautiful daughters because of it. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. But we did not ban her. Someone commented and said that this was the only time that R.C. The ironic thing, Velour, is that in my experience most recovering alkies, both in AA and CR, would encourage Lisa to show RC Jr tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. I wonder if Paul accused them of boasting because they were more concerned with numbers and protecting their reputation by sweeping things under the rug. We received an email from a former member of RC Sproul Jr's church. Sin is cosmic treason against The Holy God. We dont have money for the hanger-ons those that are faking it bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. The only way he could/would ever do this would be by the power of God giving him the grace and strength. That is my understanding of what you are saying. Neither one of us are church goers and our family is no overly religious. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. ), are out of line. Someone here posted months ago (and theyve done it several times) about a police officer at their church who was excommunicated and then committed suicide. took exception to what I said and said I created a false correlation. A different opinion here, perhaps, or a different way of looking at this. Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. We are also to bear one anthers burdens, help one another, etc. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. The defrocking was plenty scandalous all on its own, but RC Sr. turned it into a full blown debacle. Not always. No prison time. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! Nobody kicked her out. I dont think he should. A different opinion here, perhaps, or a different way of looking at this. I was answering your question to me and what Barbara wrote to H.U.G. I would say the same thing if the person was a diabetic and required insulin. To seek to return to the Lord means to leave behind all of those temptations that cause one to fall and to no longer go where one is tempted. It was spiritual abuse, a form of abuse that sounds remarkably similar to the same abuse RC Jr has inflicted on dozens of people. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R RC Sproul Sr-time to protect those grandchildren. I just see no need for this be endlessly rehashed. That is an important element here. Thats just not cool. The difference, of course, is that the dementia patient cant help it. Have you taken a DNA test? Mayre Ann (Yardis) Sproul, 50 Clover Drive, Pleasant Hills, passed away Saturday, July 3, 1965. You are also incorrect that I am putting Barbara down because I disagree with her. @ Velour: I understand. The 19-year old mother died, leaving s two-year old without a mother. It was apparently his routine to engage in this life-threatening behavior during every commute to and out of Mendota. I think that experience may be clouding your reading here. A man with enough of a track record to be REJECTED by the Presbyterian Church in America when he sought to have his ordination accepted there as a Teaching Elder and opted to go the micro denom route. I just see the hope really being in getting people like him into treatment, and getting treatment/support for their family members. I just see it as our obligation as Christians to do these things: get help and services for people, point them in the right direction. I am a hardliner. I think that is the kindest thing I can do for them as they are the weaker one/s in this regard. Change). If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. The church. Sorry to burst the bubbles of any here who revere RC Sproul Sr, but as the old adage goes The nut doesnt fall very far from the tree. A commenter from Spinderella Sproul says: I attended seminary with Jr. when Dad was teaching at RTS. If I even half told you what it did to my younger sister, people would get pitchforks. But please accept the fact that we dont all agree with you on all the details, including what if any role a local church should play in the life of an alcoholic. The Bible calls drunkenness a sin. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be violated in any way.. When you brought up 1 Cor. Can you imagine for one second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a fall down drunk? https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp, (*I am not endorsing Rachel Held Evans, this is just the website where I found the article.). We learned a lot during these years. She's given me permission to share her letter and you can use it as you deem fit. I do not support enabling R.C. It runs in the family and has only one Redemptive Hope for each and all who hear the Gospel and by Grace and through Faith put their full Hope in the Righteousness of Christ to Cover (atone for) all mysin or your sin. It is also worthy of note here that she was not a church pastor/leader who was preaching to believers from a church pulpit. It can happen. I have no problem with alcohol use by people who arent alcoholics and are responsible about it. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. Velour wrote: He pleaded no contest to one and the rest were dismissed. Web site of Farber and Otteman Funeral Homes and Cremation Center, Sac City, Lake View, Odebolt, and Wall Lake, Iowa it seems too public and intrusive for most people, I think; Geeze Louise. I love them dearly & only wish they could have the love & grace that you & your church offered to her. I've been listening to true crime lately and there is SO much 'this person probably murdered their wife but they plead down so they only got a year' and 'this person wasn't charged for rape about 5 times for lack of evidence and then oops, they turned out to be a serial killer and none of that was on file' stuff. He is going to end up dead or lifelong in prison if he does not get serious help, and the fact that his family and colleagues contribute to his continued drinking behavior implicates them as well. Well,this is one way. Not any system that overlooks his cries for that help. Name me one church and one case that has carried out Biblical Church Discipline correctly. Our President Donald Trump doesnt drink at all. I say this in support of Velour without being critical to either one of you who may have responded from your own pain. Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions. The lady in the story died of alcoholism. (I figured that if you had a DSM book that you were in mental health in some capacity, and Ive read your other comments on other threads.). They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. This story cuts too close to home. I would say the same about someone who didnt go to church. Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. They display all of the signs.). Im just looking at his outward responses to not only his alcoholism, but his Ashley Madison scandal, and dont see it as a possibility for him right now. It may be all they can do to get help.. Steam explosions from a pressurized system rupture are BAD. They and their families are all the better for it. Neither one ever gave up the booze though, although with RC Srs poor health (multiple strokes) he may be drinking less than he did. The other individual was an executive at a corporation (think Sr. Vice President). Please stop? I can never forget the time they called me back to try to convince some drunk driver to let us get some x-rays of him and they told me that the others that he hurled his large truck into were in the morgue-man, woman and two children. And taking insulin doesnt have a continual negative effect on my choices and behaviour; quite the reverse. He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. If they leave church, it would most likely be because no one put him out and continued to let his family suffer harm. One little drink wont hurt is tragically wrong. I responded to your comment with a quote from RC Sproul, but the comment is not yet visible, probably because of the words Sproul used. The parents would always come home much later than they had said. (P.S. Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but the CR program can be extremely helpful to family members. He has shown no signs of full repentance and a changed life, so thats why treatment is not as important to me right now it wont work. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. I dont recall anyone saying addictions alone warranted anyone being kicked out. I didnt even over-eat. I do agree that people wont change unless they want to. ignore the fact that he was, in fact, treating his depression. R C is 23 degrees from Jennifer Aniston, 24 degrees from Drew Barrymore, 25 degrees from Candice Bergen, 28 degrees from Alexandre Dumas, 22 degrees from Carrie Fisher, 34 degrees from Whitney Houston, 23 degrees from Hayley Mills, 23 degrees from Liza Minnelli, 21 degrees from Lisa Presley, 23 degrees from Kiefer Sutherland, 23 degrees from Bill Veeck and 28 degrees from Brian Nash on our single family tree. After he was defrocked he stayed as head pastor of St. Peter Presbyterian Church but changed his and his churchs affiliation to Doug Wilsons CREC. No one wanted to hear it, not a soul I could blank off, which is fine, but so could the people I work with. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. Would it help your perspective any to know that RC Jr has unjustly excommunicated entire families, and were not just talking a few, including small children, for the alleged sins of their parents? I reacted too strongly to some things you said. Velour wrote: Two people made comments to me and they expected replies. Very well said. Barbara Roberts wrote: I did some research into AA a few years back after a family member of mine joined and was in a few years, after his behavior became weird and more annoying than usual. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. With respect, you still didn't quote this correctly. They deal with mind and body, not recognizing that man is first and foremost a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body. Often it is tried multiple times. Basically, he lied. Agreed. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. @ Julie Anne: Fuss. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: In this issue I hope that your apparent hope is justified. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. I wouldnt wish spiritual abuse on my worst enemy either. Why? Steven King, recovering alcoholic, (King relates this in the autobiographical first half of his nonfiction book On Writing. He who is without sin cast the first stone. I have to have a blood sugar reading within certain limits in order to be allowed to drive. It is complex. Thats the Lord Himself teaching, so I dont take that lightly. At least, from the description. Now I can look back and say, How in the world did we not see how destructive their theology and community was?. Sproul 2, including in keeping his job. Velour wrote: That took many months to heal. Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. re: Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit: This is not true. I personally think I was a piece of crap uncle but thats me. In fact, in my post there last Monday I express outrage about how PCA churches are often excommunicating victims of domestic abuse for divorcing their abusers. Theres even less agreement on the extend to which an alcoholic is responsible for his behaviour whilst drunk. Im just saying that secular psychology or psychiatry or medications are not always successful or helpful in treating various issues, either, at least not for everyone. What you wrote, brought tears. Part of the real men drink beer and bourbon are two favorites at church picnics. Why would they have to go to a church, all so a pastor could do that same Googling to give them the names and addresses? That is them saying that, not me. (I use red wine in cooking and I am glad to be out of an insufferable NeoCalvinist church that saw sin in everything, including spaghetti sauce.). Its about loving the wayward soul back to being restored. (I actually read something recently that was talking about dry January or something to reset your tolerance and although Im sure that wouldnt be promoted by some, it seems like not a bad idea as far as making sure you dont actually have a problem.) The older I get and remain in a faith crisis of my own, I definitely think being church-y, and thinking about what God thinks, and caring about what God may think about this or that, adds a whole other level of unnecessary complication on to life. How does keeping an alcoholic in the church help that person, or, more specifically, rid them of the alcoholism? Perhaps the Serenity Prayer, usually ascribed to Reinhold Niebuhr, will help some of us: Hes like Driscoll and so many others. Back in 1973 I received Christ as my Savior after several different people shared Christ with me, as well as my own reading of the Bible. I hope he will have the strength to remain clean. Have child protection services been properly notified and satisfied? A memorial service was held on Wednesday, December 20 in Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Florida. In that hearing RC Sproul Jr plead guilty to one of four criminal charges against him: 9-30-5-3(a)(2)/F6: Operating Veh. I get the same apples and oranges feeling someone else mentioned. I have no doubt that it wasnt the first time by any means that R.C. Both were over the top, heavy drinkers, and very full of themselves. If it is incorrect then Im not seeing it. No one can make him do that. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? youll follow his example. They are false teachers without a flock, but with a following. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. Im not giving him a pass on any abusive behavior. Or just the general run of the mill people who support patriarchy (because its what they are used to being taught)? All the years I spent visiting MHPs (mental health professionals) in person, where I drove to their offices, were basically a waste of my time. Bridget wrote: Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. Now to deal with your concerns in a more general sense (and this is where it seems we differ), in my experience most churches arent in any way qualified to deal with alkies. . Thanks for the help on fathers day it was very good to tell that story. Would a clergy-person uses their position to But I dont exactly see her saying say, Kick them out of the church! either. So far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage. @Deb, its hard for me to express the outrage I feel for the drunk driver who took the lives of your friends parents and for the physical and emotional suffering they inflicted on you and your friend. We have gone several rounds. For me these people are PURE EVIL!! 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